ºÚÁÏÀÏ˾»ú

E&OE Ìý

DAMIAN DE MONTEMAS:ÌýºÚÁÏÀÏ˾»ú has said that the announced restructure and workforce reduction at Australia’sÌýnationalÌýscienceÌýagency, the CSIRO,Ìýunderscores a very real risk of chronic underfunding in the nation’s research system. To talk about this some more is the CEO ofÌýºÚÁÏÀÏ˾»ú,ÌýLukeÌýSheehy.ÌýGood afternoon, Luke.ÌýÌý

LUKE SHEEHY:ÌýGood afternoon.Ìý

DAMIAN DE MONTEMAS:ÌýThis latest announcement of 350 job losses is on top of earlier announcements,Ìýtaking the number of job losses at the CSIRO to over 1,000. This is not really the direction we need to be heading in for research and development in Australia.Ìý

LUKE SHEEHY:ÌýIt absolutelyÌýisn’t. And universities alongsideÌýCSIROÌýand industry deliver research and development for the future of Australia. But frankly, these cuts are a worrying sign at a time when Australia is fallingÌýfurther and furtherÌýbehind. Currently, our research and development spend as a percentage of GDP is only around 1.6 to 1.7Ìýper cent. That is almost half the OECD average and way behind our competitor countries in our region and in Europe and North America. Frankly, we need to see more investment inÌýCSIRO, more investment in research in our businessesÌýand,Ìýof course, universities have a role to play as well.ÌýWe’reÌýreally concerned about these job cuts.ÌýWe’reÌýheading in the wrong direction andÌýthat’sÌýnot good for the country.Ìý

DAMIAN DE MONTEMAS:ÌýWhy is the CSIRO being so chronically underfunded?Ìý

LUKE SHEEHY:ÌýCSIRO does get its funding from theÌýCommonwealthÌýgovernment, and while the government will point to increases in funding,Ìýit’sÌýnot keeping up with costs andÌýit’sÌýnot keeping up with the government’s own aspiration.Ìý

DAMIAN DE MONTEMAS:ÌýÌýThat’s right.ÌýYeah.Ìý

LUKE SHEEHY:ÌýThe government wants to lift research and developmentÌýinvestmentÌýtoÌýthree per centÌýof GDP.ÌýThat’sÌýgoing to requireÌýa monumental effortÌýof investment from universities, but from businesses and of course from government.ÌýWe’veÌýgot to see them investing in their own aspiration. And if we are cuttingÌýCSIROÌýjobs,Ìýwe’reÌýnot investing,Ìýwe are going the wrong way.Ìý

DAMIAN DE MONTEMAS:ÌýAustralia was for a while,ÌýI’mÌýnot sureÌýwe still are,Ìýknown as the cleverÌýÌýcountry.ÌýWe’veÌýalways been at the forefront of innovation and research and development.ÌýWe’veÌýinvented so many things in Australia. Are we at risk of losing our best scientists to overseas organizations or into the private sector?Ìý

LUKE SHEEHY:ÌýWithout a doubt, and I thinkÌýwe’reÌýnot just at risk of losing people fromÌýCSIRO,Ìýwhich is obvious with the job cuts, but we are at risk of losing talented people from our universities, from our businesses going elsewhere. There is more research and development as a percentage of investment in other countries and Australia will be left behind andÌýwe’llÌýlose our best and brightestÌýwho’llÌýseek those opportunities elsewhere. IÌýdon’tÌýthink anyone would think thatÌýthat’sÌýa good idea. We want to see Australia produce clever ideas that then benefit not only our businesses and our economy, but breakthroughs that support us in our health and the way that we live.ÌýIf we are not investing in science and research, thenÌýwe’reÌýon a recipe orÌýonÌýa journey to the wrong place.Ìý

DAMIAN DE MONTEMAS:ÌýI was watchingÌýSenatorÌýDavid Pocock’s response to the announcements of further job cuts at CSIRO on his Facebook page.ÌýHe’sÌýobviously pretty fired up about it, but what would you like to see changed? What sort of action would you like to see changedÌýorÌýbrought in?Ìý

LUKE SHEEHY:ÌýThe governmentÌýis undertaking a review of research and development across AustraliaÌýat the moment. They get to finalise their report on that.ÌýThat’sÌýheaded up by Robyn Denholm,Ìýwho’sÌýfrom Tesla and an eminent Australian.ÌýWe are really looking forward to seeing what those recommendations are. But we know before we started that the government spends across 150 different programs into research and development.ÌýIt’sÌýfragmented,Ìýit’sÌýnot well organised. So,Ìýbefore we even spend any more money, we canÌýactually spendÌýthe moneyÌýwe do spendÌýat the momentÌýa lot better.ÌýThat’sÌýthe first thing.ÌýWe knowÌýand soÌýdoesÌýthe interim report from that review,ÌýthatÌýwe’veÌýgot to invest billions and billions more just to keep up.ÌýIt’sÌýnot just about governmentÌýfunding,Ìýit’sÌýalso about businesses. The heavy liftingÌýhas toÌýhappenÌýinÌýthe university sector and our business community.ÌýWe know right across the Australian economy, we do excellent things. We are incredibly productive when it comes to agriculture and becoming a food bowl for not only Australia but for the region. There’s more we can do in this space, of course, with technology andÌýAI, but there’s a whole range of other things that we need to do because if we are going to create our own future, a clean and green future with new energy sources and driving new opportunities for new jobs, you can’t do it without putting in research and development investment and we are just falling behind.ÌýThat’sÌýwhat makes these job cutsÌýall the moreÌýworrying.Ìý

DAMIAN DE MONTEMAS:ÌýIt does seem at odds withÌýtheÌýpolicy of net zero by 2050 as well, removing so much potential from Australian shores or losing them.ÌýDefinitely notÌýjust, I mean indefinitely,Ìýit’sÌýhorrible to see such a vacuum that it might create. Is there an area though of research? I mean, you did sayÌýit’sÌývery fragmented,Ìýit’sÌýacross 150 programs.ÌýIsÌýthere an area or areas that you think we really should be focusing on in Australia?Ìý

LUKE SHEEHY:ÌýObviously, and the government has made this point as well, and the universities are here to support this ambition. We want aÌýFutureÌýMade in Australia. We want to make sure that we become the clean energy superpower of our region. We haveÌýall ofÌýthe resources andÌýall ofÌýthe attributes in this great continent of ours to succeed and to continue to have the wealthÌýandÌýprosperity that we all share and that can be achieved into the next generation. If we are turbo-powering those newÌýindustries, particularly clean energy, critical minerals,ÌýthatÌýwe know will play a role in the technology of the future,Ìýit’sÌýimportant that we put theÌýR&DÌýinvestment into that andÌýthat’sÌýwhyÌýthe government has these programs like aÌýFutureÌýMade in Australia. But my message isÌýpretty clear:Ìýyou can’t have aÌýFutureÌýMade in Australia, you can’t have a healthyÌýAustraliaÌýand you certainly can’t have this clean energy transformation if you don’t put the money into the research and development that underpins the strategic move from one partÌýto another.ÌýWe’reÌýgoing to miss out.ÌýThis is whyÌýwe’reÌýso concerned about job losses inÌýCSIRO.Ìý350Ìýpeople are going into Christmas more anxious than they need to be, and our country is worseÌýoff for it. I want to see the government start to invest in ourÌýR&DÌýcapacity and work with us and the business community to really achieve those big aspirations thatÌýthey’veÌýalready set their minds to.Ìý

DAMIAN DE MONTEMAS:ÌýLuke, do you get much chance to chat to politicians? I mean, you must have certain situations where you can advocate and put your ideas firmly across.ÌýI’mÌýsure youÌýprobably evenÌýchatted to Senator David Pocock,ÌýI’mÌýnot sure, but do you think the message is getting through to the government because itÌýreally justÌýdoes seem very, to cliche the term, veryÌýunAustralianÌýto be heading down this direction?Ìý

LUKE SHEEHY:ÌýI think thereÌýare priorities that the government has and sometimes weÌýhave toÌýmake ourÌýcase,ÌýweÌýhave toÌýmake our caseÌýpretty convincingly, right? AndÌýinÌýthe university space,Ìýthat’sÌýalways a big challenge. I spend a lot of time with politicians.ÌýI’mÌýin Perth today andÌýI’veÌýbeen meeting withÌýcrossbench federal politician Kate Chaney, andÌýI’veÌýalso met state politicians. WeÌýhave toÌýmake the case at universities for investment,Ìýbut we need a lot of allies.ÌýI think the business communityÌýneeds to step up. Research and developmentÌýbenefitÌýall parts of the economy.ÌýIt’sÌýnot just about putting more university students into laboratories, althoughÌýthat’sÌýan important part of it,Ìýit’sÌýalso about turbocharging out more to medium enterprises, giving themÌýnew ideas, testing products, getting them into the global supply chain.ÌýAustralia has, as you rightly pointed out, a fantasticÌýtrack recordÌýof discovery and innovation.ÌýWi-Fi, the black box, penicillin,ÌýcochlearÌýimplants, you name it.ÌýTheyÌýcame because dedicated people worked forÌýhours and hoursÌýin laboratories, inÌýdifferent partsÌýof research labs to work out what was going on in the world and the universe and making those breakthroughs and discoveries. IfÌýwe’reÌýnot putting more money into that,Ìýwe’reÌýnot sending the right signal for the next generation to become our researchers. The other thing we really want the government to do is support our PhD students. The best and brightest are those doing PhDs, andÌýat the moment,Ìýthey’reÌýonly getting about $33,000 to live and raise a family on whileÌýthey’reÌýdoing that PhDÌýfullÌýtime. That is just on or above the poverty line.ÌýAÌýpractical step we could take as well is to give PhD students more practical support by raising that stipend soÌýthey’reÌýnot livingÌýonÌýthe poverty line. No AustralianÌýwould expect the best and brightest in Australia to be living hand to mouth each week.Ìý

DAMIAN DE MONTEMAS:ÌýNo,Ìýthat’sÌýright.ÌýIt’sÌýcertainly a stark difference to places like China and many other countries around the world that are investing billions and up toÌýeight per centÌýof their GDP into research and development. We used to be at the forefront of it in Australia, andÌýit seems that weÌýshould be again, but currently it looks likeÌýwe’reÌýfalling sadlyÌývery, very farÌýbehind. Luke, thanks for your thoughts today, mate. Thanks very much for your time.Ìý

LUKE SHEEHY:ÌýGreat to be with you, and thanks so much for your time.Ìý

ENDS Ìý